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[Monique]

Mentioning your Goddessness is not nice??

I am not being nasty. Surely by now you can tell the difference?

I am not saying character has anything whatsoever to do with education!! It is an obvious social convention, as the OP posted, that one must have at least a Bachelor degree to get any kind of decent job these days.

Nothing personal.

[sammy]

Except that public schools can barely function now with the drastic funding cuts and ridiculous test standards (NCLB) that the Republicans have inflicted on them. So, they should take away classes in core skills (3R's +science) but pay for 18 different kinds of shop class for the kids who aren't college material? I can hear China and Japan laughing their off!

I definitely draw the line at 18 kinds of shop class!

[livewire]

Who ever said 18 kinds of shop class (besides Monique)?

I think CK made some valid points. I'm not saying a Masters Degree is useless, but even a Mechanical Engineer would have benefited from shop class in high school. And vocational education isn't THAT expensive, when compared to swimming, or some of the other sports. Football doesn't prepare one for life in the real world as much as a shop class of some sort.

Monique, did you take any shop classes in high school?

[Monique]

Sure did! I absolutely adored woodshop! I used the bowl I made on the lathe in 7th grade just yesterday! (Got an A on that one, matter of fact.) Loved Mr Rayce, even though he was strict and made me spit my grape Bubble Yum out into his hand in front of everyone.

But that was in 1979 when my Dad was helping to build manufacturing plants in Detroit and most folks were living pretty well.

[The Fuzz]

I wonder if Charlie Sheen has a degree?

[Collegekid]

I wonder if Charlie Sheen has a degree?

Tech school Fuzz, tech school.

[forever39]

Everyone is not going to go to college, but everyone needs to get a job to become independent.  I, for one, would rather see my tax dollars support vocational classes than to see students taking classes they will never use in their future.  If the last 2 years of high school offered classes in the medical field, automotive field, etc., even if a student had to go to school another year or so after graduation, they could be well on their way to a career.  Just watched a segment on the news a couple weeks ago that welders, pipefitters and a couple other specialties that I can't remember are in very high demand.  College is beneficial but so is a skill.

[livewire]

Sure did! I absolutely adored woodshop! I used the bowl I made on the lathe in 7th grade just yesterday! (Got an A on that one, matter of fact.) Loved Mr Rayce, even though he was strict and made me spit my grape Bubble Yum out into his hand in front of everyone.

But that was in 1979 when my Dad was helping to build manufacturing plants in Detroit and most folks were living pretty well.

Ok, cool.  Sounds like you have vivid memories of that class.  Don't you think that they have a great deal of value to a student?  Especially one who may not be "college material", and may be thinking about getting a job in, say, a skilled trade, or working for a contractor.

I'm not against college, but not everyone is cut out to be an engineer, or doctor.  There still needs to be people to do the manual labor of different types of maintenance, building and remodeling.  And these jobs can be VERY well paid positions, too.

Everyone is not going to go to college, but everyone needs to get a job to become independent.  I, for one, would rather see my tax dollars support vocational classes than to see students taking classes they will never use in their future.  If the last 2 years of high school offered classes in the medical field, automotive field, etc., even if a student had to go to school another year or so after graduation, they could be well on their way to a career.  Just watched a segment on the news a couple weeks ago that welders, pipefitters and a couple other specialties that I can't remember are in very high demand.  College is beneficial but so is a skill.

I agree 100%.

[Monique]

Sure, vocational classes are a lot of fun! And educational! And very expensive to maintain!! For woodshop, we had a whole huge room full of equipment like lathes, drill press, table saw, etc. A beau in high school was in the automotive tech program, where they maintained an entire functional garage at MHS. As I recall we had metal shop, too. Maybe others. How much do you think it cost to maintain those departments? To keep supplies on hand? To keep the tools in working order? As much as it costs to keep a Spanish class in business? Lots and lots of people speak Spanish. And French. And Russian, even. But I guess learning how to bleed breaks is more important. For free. In public school.

[Monique]

Everyone is not going to go to college, but everyone needs to get a job to become independent.  I, for one, would rather see my tax dollars support vocational classes than to see students taking classes they will never use in their future.  If the last 2 years of high school offered classes in the medical field, automotive field, etc., even if a student had to go to school another year or so after graduation, they could be well on their way to a career.  Just watched a segment on the news a couple weeks ago that welders, pipefitters and a couple other specialties that I can't remember are in very high demand. College is beneficial but so is a skill.

That's fine. A person who wants to go into a skilled trade can pay to go to a tech school after graduation. Why should a public school pay the cost of teaching that child a trade at the expense of core skills? High school kids on the college track don't get college credits toward their career or degree, why should anyone else? If you're willing to allow (and pay for) college professors to come and teach advanced high schoolers BIO101 and LIT101, etc., then I can see teaching other students a skilled trade. Otherwise, they can both pay their own tuition--or earn a scholarship--on their own.

[Arghi Murkurhgi]

That's fine. A person who wants to go into a skilled trade can pay to go to a tech school after graduation. Why should a public school pay the cost of teaching that child a trade at the expense of core skills? High school kids on the college track don't get college credits toward their career or degree, why should anyone else? If you're willing to allow (and pay for) college professors to come and teach advanced high schoolers BIO101 and LIT101, etc., then I can see teaching other students a skilled trade. Otherwise, they can both pay their own tuition--or earn a scholarship--on their own.

I'm not sure if they are still doing it, but Monroe Public Schools and Monroe County Community College was offering dual enrollment for some classes a few years ago, allowing the student to earn both college credits and credits towards graduation. The courses were given at the college.

They have probably discontinued it though because it was a stupid liberal idea.

[Monique]

I do believe that 'Stupid Liberals' can be blamed for any evil that exists today! 

That program is a great incentive to get high schoolers motivated for attending community college. A win-win for MCCC and career-bound students.

My favorite and most educational years of schooling came from my two years at MCCC. GREAT SCHOOL!

[livewire]

Sure, vocational classes are a lot of fun! And educational! And very expensive to maintain!! For woodshop, we had a whole huge room full of equipment like lathes, drill press, table saw, etc. A beau in high school was in the automotive tech program, where they maintained an entire functional garage at MHS. As I recall we had metal shop, too. Maybe others. How much do you think it cost to maintain those departments? To keep supplies on hand? To keep the tools in working order? As much as it costs to keep a Spanish class in business? Lots and lots of people speak Spanish. And French. And Russian, even. But I guess learning how to bleed breaks is more important. For free. In public school.

Say what you want, but I still insist that auto body, auto repair, metal shop, etc. are a good investment in our youth, and are MUCH more effective at preparing our kids for a job than a foreign language, which by comparison, is just about useless.  If cuts need to be made, cut the swimming pool and sports.  THOSE are very expensive too, and do NOTHING to prepare our kids for the real world.

[Monique]

I have absolutely NO problem cutting sports like football and basketball. I hate those sports with a passion. Stupid waste of time and a major distraction from learning.

I do support music programs, because it has been proven to improve math skills in students.

Learning a skilled trade needs to be done on your own time and dime. Learning to read, write, spell, and do math is the domain of public schools.

[Monique]

Also interesting... vocational students (non-college bound) probably grow up to be conservative voters?

College bound students probably grow up to be progressive voters?

Just an observation.