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Monique

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2013, 09:08:18 PM »

The charter schools we have available here in Monroe County are all business. They do NOT care about the child whatsoever. They 'inhale mightily.'
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Mike Ingels

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2013, 09:10:27 PM »

The other thing to consider from a cost perspective is that class sizes can be increased in a traditional public school model more easily than they can in a school choice/charter model.  If families are given freedom to choose, I would assume that they would choose a school with a 25 student per class average over a 35 student per class average.  They will just go somewhere else.  That doesn't necessarily mean the instruction is worse - although it could be.  The data seems to suggest that class size is not the most important factor in student success.  From a simple cost perspective, choice is probably going to be more expensive in the long term.  So, if the goal is simple cost reduction, the public school model might be cheaper.
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Monique

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2013, 09:20:52 PM »

I think home based online education is the way of the future. However, culture is going to have to catch up to the fact that one parent will have to be home with the students.
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Mike Ingels

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2013, 09:23:26 PM »

I agree with the statement "At this point, people might want to go in for the kill shot and just destroy public schools, but I don't think that there will really be any cost savings with a wholesale move to charter schools."

But for the ones not cutting the grade, it "may" be an option Mike.  Gotta be worth a shot to see if they can succeed....it's potentially good for the kids if it works versus repeating failed efforts of some individual schools.

Here's the problem I see.  We have had a lot of school choice already built into the system.  Here in Lenawee, a kid can pretty much choose to attend any public school district in the county.  There are charter schools.  There are options programs.  High school kids can take about half of their coursework at our ISD or dual enroll at Jackson Community College.  And this doesn't even talk about the options within local districts.

But do we see wholesale moves of students away from districts with lower test scores?  I don't think that we see that.  Of course, we see a fair number of kids move from Adrian to other surrounding districts.  But Adrian has actually had some test score successes in recent years.  And there are some low-performing rural districts that keep their student populations.

What we do see is districts spending a lot of time and money on showy projects meant to attract kids and families.  Good sports programs/facilities.  Purchase of new technologies, sometimes without a corresponding plan to support or implement the technology.  We even had a consultant advise us that landscaping was very important because families do drive-by's and the curb appeal drives up student counts.  And the same dynamics are at play with a for-profit school.  The brochure needs to look good for prospective families.
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Mike Ingels

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2013, 09:27:45 PM »

I think home based online education is the way of the future. However, culture is going to have to catch up to the fact that one parent will have to be home with the students.

I think that the best option will be online or technology-assisted traditional classroom teaching.  I am an English teacher and a few years ago, we had a program that gave students instant essay feedback.  It was very impressive.  It kicked out a list of 40 or 50 items that the student could improve on in terms of their writing.  It was more than I ever could do reading 30 essays.  It would take me two weeks to do the same thing that the computer did.

So, match up the correct software with the correct teacher who can set the software parameters and help the student interpret the results and you could have a 35 or 40 student classroom that is very effective at teaching a kid how to write.
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Monique

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2013, 09:32:23 PM »

All I really know is that my kids blow the school reading statistics away, and although they love their teachers, they are bored in their classrooms. Still good students, academically and behaviorally, but I fear that they won't continue being top performers if they are intrinsically bored. Home schooling might necessarily be in our future.
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Monique

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 09:43:19 PM »

I think that the best option will be online or technology-assisted traditional classroom teaching.  I am an English teacher and a few years ago, we had a program that gave students instant essay feedback.  It was very impressive.  It kicked out a list of 40 or 50 items that the student could improve on in terms of their writing.  It was more than I ever could do reading 30 essays.  It would take me two weeks to do the same thing that the computer did.

So, match up the correct software with the correct teacher who can set the software parameters and help the student interpret the results and you could have a 35 or 40 student classroom that is very effective at teaching a kid how to write.
And that is fantastic! Now let's get some subsidies toward home based learning. Less cost in public school funding, less risk for all the gun totin' lunatics, happy happy all around, right?
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Mike Ingels

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2013, 09:46:32 PM »

You are a good mom, Monique.  I've got no problem, actually, with programs to help all parents work with their kids at home.  Let's get books, supplies and software into every home.
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Monique

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2013, 09:55:43 PM »

Thank you, Mike. That actually and for real means a lot to me. I try every day to be a good parent, as I'm sure you do as well. I just want my kids to be happy, healthy, and have every educational advantage they can have given our working class status.

I have a friend who home schools her kids based on a national program that makes it very easy to do. The only thing that stops me from following the same program is the social aspect. That's really, really important. Easily overlooked, but crucial to a child's development.
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BigRedDog

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2013, 06:52:37 AM »

Thank you, Mike. That actually and for real means a lot to me. I try every day to be a good parent, as I'm sure you do as well. I just want my kids to be happy, healthy, and have every educational advantage they can have given our working class status.

I have a friend who home schools her kids based on a national program that makes it very easy to do. The only thing that stops me from following the same program is the social aspect. That's really, really important. Easily overlooked, but crucial to a child's development.

You are absolutely correct about the 'social aspect' Monique and I agree it is a major consideration.  What we found with our youngest though is that it was that 'social aspect' that was causing her issues in high school...  she was regularly bullied and picked on by lots of the kids because of her very obvious 'physical' shortcoming.  Kids can be terrible at times!!!  It hadn't been as bad in her younger years although it did surface from time to time.  But kids start 'growing up' in high school and they start acting out the discrimination issues they've developed by then.  I have often wondered that maybe because there were only a few racial minorities in our entire school system she became the 'designated target' for many of these kids to take out their aggressions on ???  She was very, very obviously 'different' and therefore targeted! 

All I'm saying is 'balance' both sides of the social issues...  your kids 'learn what they live' and then add to it with what they 'see and hear' in social situations.  I have seen all sorts of wonderful success stories with home schooling but I'm sure that those are the ones that are easy to see.  The negatives probably get thrown aside. 

I had some concerns when she started it that I wouldn't be able to 'teach' at that level but in all reality I did very little teaching.  A little Googling once in a great while.  She did some work online and some more traditionally from high quality and well written text books.  She had new and up to date books that she would not have had in the public school.  To a point she could set her own pace and she did take a little longer to finish, but I'm afraid if we had pushed her to finish on the same schedule as her 'class' she might have pushed back and failed altogether.  I was working from home by then and I just considered myself more of a 'coach' than anything.  It seems like her senior year of high school was around $1300 plus a few more costs as graduation approached (just like 'real' schools) ;) ;) ;)

We were happy with the entire program and in hindsight it would have been worth even more had it cost more.  She graduated and is now a tax paying member of society with money in the bank!  Before she started her current job she did an 'evaluation' of some type...  it was a couple of hours and it was part along the lines of an IQ test and part along the line of an aptitude test.  When she finished it they scored her at the level of a college grad with a masters degree.  Now, that is obviously 'all' not from the little bit of home schooling...  she had some help genetically I'm sure :D :D :D

Getting back to the 'social' aspect vs. home schooling.  You already have them involved in some programs where they have some social interaction and you can continue and expand those.  I've heard of 'home school social groups' for various age levels.  If there isn't one in Monroe then it's probably time somebody started one!

Ok, I've told this 'story' once before on here but I'll repeat it.  Many, many years ago when our youngest was about 4 or 4 we went to a birthday party for one of the gals I worked with.  As we were entering the building where it was there was a young boy about a year older than our daughter standing taking off his coat.  As we were all removing our coats we saw him literally staring at our daughters 'arm'...  my wife and I were looking at each other because this was something we had never had happen before...  finally the little boy looked up at us and in his most serious voice and face said "there's something wrong with her arm!"  We both froze!!!  But the young man 'saved the moment' when he added "but there's something wrong with everybody!  I have asthma!"   

How can some youngsters have a grasp on this at that age and then we have some so called adults who have no grasp of that concept whatsoever.  And there seems to be a growing number of them and I think they're all right here on MonroeTalks :( :( :(
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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2013, 07:17:37 AM »

The charter schools we have available here in Monroe County are all business. They do NOT care about the child whatsoever. They 'inhale mightily.'

I have several friends that sent their kids to Triumph.

They sent several kids to States in the Spelling Bee, and several to Nationals in the Geography Bee.

They are teaching advanced math in the 8th grade.

I guess what I am saying is you don't know what you are talking about and perhaps you need to get your facts straight before you libel an organization.
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Professor H

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2013, 10:54:28 PM »

Until they stop trying to put every student in the same mold - the educational system is set up for system wide failure.

=========================================================
For years now, U.S. educators have invested massive amounts of talent and money on two goals: preventing students from dropping out of high school and increasing the percentage of high school graduates who go on to college.

We do everything possible to encourage college attendance. In the 2011-12 academic year, for example, one program alone—the federal Pell Grant program, intended to help low- and moderate-income students finance college—cost taxpayers $34.5 billion, about half the entire U.S. Department of Education budget.

Yet many Pell Grant recipients never graduate. They flounder; they drop out; they become statistics.

How can we prevent such waste?

A new report from the College Board, funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, offers a variety of useful ideas, such as larger grants for students who take heavier college course loads. Tougher schedules show that students are serious about graduating.

That’s one good approach. But let me suggest another, which Germany has pioneered.

Our friends in Germany know—as we should—that some students are bored by traditional studies; some don’t have the aptitude for college; some would rather work with their hands; and some are unhappy at home and just need to get away. They realize that everyone won’t benefit from college, but they can still be successful and contribute to society.

Americans often see such students as victims. Germans see these students as potential assets who might one day shine if they’re matched with the right vocation. And it has a system in place—a partnership of employers and unions with government—to do the matching and provide the necessary training.

As the New York Times Magazine recently noted, Germany’s vocational education program doesn’t focus entirely on factory work. Consider the story of the noted chef Claus-Peter Lumpp.

“Lumpp’s culinary ascent began with the simple urge to drop out of high school around the time of his 16th birthday,” the Times’ Nicholas Kulish reported. “His widowed mother had remarried, and the family moved to another town. Everything felt off: the new school, the new people. His mother gave him permission to leave school, but only if he found an apprenticeship.” Lumpp found that apprenticeship in the kitchen of the Hotel Bareiss. Today, Lumpp’s Restaurant Bareiss has a three-star rating from the prestigious Michelin guide—and most of the chefs in his kitchen were mentored under the same system that brought his talents to the fore.

As a result of this system, few Germans find themselves unemployable. The youth unemployment rate, for example, was just 7.7 percent in February, well below that of the U.S. (16.2 percent officially, excluding those who have dropped out of the labor market) and the euro zone as a whole (23.9 percent). Overall unemployment in Germany was just 5.4 percent in February.

Administered by the Federal Institute for Vocational Training and Education, Germany’s vocational education program is a dual system: Students learn in the classroom, and they learn by doing. Typically, trainees attend vocational school one or two days per week, studying the theory and practice of their occupation as well as economics and social studies, foreign languages, and other general subjects. They also do a working apprenticeship in their chosen field. During this period, trainees receive about one-third of the salary of a trained skilled worker.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, a majority of German students (some 51.5 percent) choose this path.

America for too long has attempted a cookie-cutter approach to secondary education: Stay in school; go to college; and we’ll all be happy. To our continued consternation, it doesn’t always work.

If America wants to remain competitive, we have to keep our young people engaged. Germany has the right formula. U.S. business and political leaders should learn from the German approach and invest in creating and supporting a German-style vocational education system. Businesses will get the skilled workers they need, young people will see new career opportunities open up to them, our middle class will be strengthened, and our economy will benefit.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-29/what-germany-can-teach-the-u-dot-s-dot-about-vocational-education#r=read
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BigRedDog

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2013, 03:45:02 AM »

Until they stop trying to put every student in the same mold - the educational system is set up for system wide failure.

Absolutely right Prof H...

they have every student in the same mold and now they're trying to apply the 'cure' to every school district as if they're in the same mold. 
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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2013, 01:59:58 PM »

I can't believe all students in Michigan High Schools are required to take College Prep course work.

I don't get it.  When will we learn about the values of vocational schools?
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blue2

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Re: Leaving no school behind: Can bad ones be turned around?
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2013, 03:07:17 PM »

I don't want to tick anyone off but we spend more money trying to educate kids that don't have the ability to learn much of anything.  Monroe county ISD is the biggest waste of money you'll find.
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