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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2013, 08:38:43 AM »

So it would be a patent violation to buy a seed, harvest, and plant seeds from your harvest?

I don't think the iPhone analogy works.  The purpose of an iPhone is not to replicate itself.  That is the purpose of a seed.....  and I give the credit for that miracle to God....

Yes.  It's not the seed itself that is patented - it's the technology that went into it.

I agree with you that the miracle of life should be credited to God.  But God gave man the ability to change things to make his life better.  Is it God's will for us to use fertilizer?  What kinds?  Only manure?  What about chemical fertilizers?  Does he allow mechanical cultivation of weeds, to improve the growing of the crop?  Herbicides?  Insecticides?  Where do we draw the line?  We are not creating life.  That is impossible.  We are taking a seed and altering the traits of a plant.  This has been done for hundreds of years, and at the genetic level for decades.

As BRD has mentioned grafting (excellent example), is it God's will for man to alter a plant, or a tree, by using a method such as grafting?  If no, why not?  What about cross breeding two different varieties of corn to create a hybrid?  This has been done for almost a century with all kinds of crops - not just corn.

Honestly, MN, I don't think God would be at all upset with us over these things.  If you disagree, please tell me why.



There has also been problems with the Roundup ready seed requiring more and more pesticide to kill the weeds because the weeds are becoming resistant. Much like infections becoming resistant to penicillin.


That is absolutely true, in some areas.  It's called natural selection, and it's to be expected.  But the resistance isn't caused by the genetic modification of the plant.  It's caused by the exclusive use of glyphosate herbicide.  Quite honestly, non-farmers need to know a few things... glyphosate (Roundup) is a very safe herbicide to use.  It's mode of action is MUCH safer, compared to other herbicides on the market that use other modes of action to kill weeds.

I still use Roundup, and it is very effective.  Actually, I use a generic version of it (MUCH cheaper), since the patent on Roundup has expired a long time ago.  So Monsanto doesn't actually get any of my money.  Maybe that will make some people sleep better, I don't know.

Your penicillin example is a good one, though.  Just because penicillin was discovered, and it was a beneficial technology, it was used widely.  If the internet was available back then, there may have been discussions similar to this one as to whether it should be used or not.

So, does all this mean that we should never have widely used penicillin, just because the infections eventually became immune to it?  Is that a reason to NOT use a product, or a technology?
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Monroe Native

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2013, 08:58:58 AM »

Honestly, MN, I don't think God would be at all upset with us over these things.  If you disagree, please tell me why.

Nope.  Totally agree.  God told us:

Quote
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”

I think that pretty well says we are going to till, fertilize, weed, etc.
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2013, 09:01:46 AM »

There are many more problems with GMO as outlined here.

http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/impact.html


Ok, I read the article in this link, but I didn't go research EVERY link listed in this article.

Looking at this article on it's face, I have already debunked many of the evils mentioned here.  Most things in this article are simply not true.

I don't have time to review every item, but here are some highlights:

One Roundup Ready crop, though, alfalfa, has been removed from the market.

That is not true.

https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/products/alfalfa/genuity-roundup-ready/



The article says Most Roundup Ready crops are considered safe for consumption.

Most?  Really?  So, which ones are NOT safe for consumption?  The article doesn't say.



The "lack of increased yield" is also a lie.  If there was no benefit, farmers wouldn't use it.  I have seen the increased yield - not from the plant, but as a RESULT from the modifications... fewer weeds, fewer insects, fewer diseases equals higher yields.  They're playing with words.  The seeds don't create more yield by themselves, but the END RESULT is higher yields, because the modifications allow farmers to grow a healthier crop.


I've already discussed herbicide resistance, so I won't bother talking about that again.


I will end this post with a quote from this article:

"Most agree that it is very challenging to quantify the effect releasing a new organism into an environment will be. The ultimate effects of such an introduction are hard to predict, and careful analysis to minimize the risk associated is necessary."


I agree with that.  But this article in the link gave NO information where GMO's were harmful.  Like anything else, sure, someone may be harmed by food produced from a GMO, somewhere down the line (like the mention of allergies in the article).  But that is not a direct result of the GMO food.
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2013, 09:10:03 AM »

http://sustainablepulse.com/2013/05/12/nestle-folds-to-consumer-pressure-over-gmos-in-south-africa/#.Ug39tm38k7k

This is what scares me Livewire.  What are we putting into the mouth of our children?  And thankfully, I have not had any fast food since last September, but I do eat out and who knows what is in the burger or chicken that I have ate??  Even the corn??  Scary!


Ok, I read this article, Erie.

Maybe I'm just stupid, I don't know.  But I didn't see ANYWHERE in this article where they showed the harm from GMO foods.  It talked at length about this food having this percentage of GM maize, and that food having that percentage of GM maize.  But it NEVER mentioned WHY that was harmful.


Again - WHAT, specifically, is so scary?  What are people afraid of?
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Dan Hamilton

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2013, 09:14:04 AM »

So, does all this mean that we should never have widely used penicillin, just because the infections eventually became immune to it?  Is that a reason to NOT use a product, or a technology?
When a product no longer functions as it was intended (penicillin) did we just continue to use larger doses or did we try and find something more effective?

Also, GMO seeds are contaminating others crops. It is now virtually impossible for farmers to grow non-genetically engineered Canola in Canada.

Roundup Ready seeds have what is known as "terminator technology;" seeds that are grown for a second generation are sterile. Farmers need to purchase seeds from Monsanto each year if they want to continue to use their crops. Many cite the terminator technology as restricting and preventing farmers from reusing their best seed, requiring them to rely on the newest strain of Roundup Ready seed each year. Monsanto, however, argues that the terminator technology is used to help prevent the spread of the glyphosate (Roundup) resistance to other species.

Who you believe is up to you, however, the eventual cross pollination of RR seed and other farmers seed, will not only prevent those farmers from being able to use their own seed (because of patenting laws) but also because their seed will no longer germinate after a few generations.
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Dan Hamilton

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2013, 09:28:38 AM »

I don't have time to review every item, but here are some highlights:

One Roundup Ready crop, though, alfalfa, has been removed from the market.

That is not true.

https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/products/alfalfa/genuity-roundup-ready/


You are correct in that the seed is now available once again, however it was removed in the past., as the site I had used was not updated. Here is the entire history of RR alfalfa.

Quote
Roundup Ready Alfalfa History
   

Divider

In 2005, USDA deregulated alfalfa genetically engineered to resist the herbicide Roundup®. A lawsuit challenging USDA's decision was subsequently filed. As a result, several actions were taken by the court and APHIS. This page describes the chronological history of the court’s and APHIS’ actions.

February 2, 2011
APHIS published a notice in the Federal Register announcing that the record of decision and determination of nonregulated status, based on the findings of the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) published December 16, 2010, for Roundup Ready® alfalfa (RR alfalfa), is available.

January 27, 2011
APHIS announced its decision to grant nonregulated status for RR alfalfa. APHIS was required to wait at least 30 days after the EIS was published in the Federal Register before issuing its decision. APHIS made its decision after conducting a thorough and transparent examination of alfalfa through a multi-alternative EIS and several public comment opportunities, and determining that RR alfalfa does not pose a plant pest risk.

December 16, 2010/December 23, 2010
APHIS makes available for public viewing the final EIS that evaluates the potential environmental effects of deregulating two lines of alfalfa genetically engineered (GE) to tolerate the herbicide glyphosate, known commercially as Roundup ®. The Environmental Protection Agency publishes the final EIS in the Federal Register.

January-February 2010
APHIS holds four public meetings to gather feedback on the Draft EIS.

December 14, 2009
APHIS makes the Draft EIS available for public viewing.

September 2, 2008
The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, CA upheld March 30, 2007 decision to halt the selling and planting of seed for the Monsanto Company's line of alfalfa genetically engineered to resist the herbicide Roundup® pending the completion of an environmental impact statement (EIS).     

December 18, 2007
APHIS issued a supplemental administrative order which clarifies and replaces the July 12, 2007 Administrative Order. The revised order specifies mandatory practices that must be implemented by Roundup Ready® alfalfa producers.

July 23, 2007
The California District Court issued an Amended Order on its May 3, 2007 Permanent Injunction regarding the court's ruling in February 2007 to vacate APHIS’ 2005 decision to deregulate Monsanto's genetically engineered (GE) Roundup Ready® alfalfa. The order describes details on how growers and distributors will store GE alfalfa, label containers, and clean equipment. It also describes how APHIS will manage the disclosure of location data. The July 23 Amended Order is the final order that will be enforced by the court.

May 3, 2007
The judge issued a permanent order in a lawsuit concerning genetically engineered (GE) alfalfa.  The permanent order stated that the alfalfa is once again a regulated article, requiring an APHIS permit for future plantings. Future harvesting or sale of alfalfa already planted will be allowed under certain conditions.  APHIS must issue an administrative order describing the conditions within 45 days. Within 30 days, Forage Genetics must supply all known alfalfa seed production locations for public disclosure.

March 23, 2007
APHIS published in the Federal Register a notice that the Agency will return to regulated status alfalfa lines J101 and J163 that are genetically engineered by the Monsanto Company and Forage Genetics International to be tolerant to the herbicide glyphosate. APHIS is taking this action due to a California U.S. District Court decision on February 13, to vacate APHIS' June 2005 determination of nonregulated status of the alfalfa lines.
The court made its decision in response to a lawsuit filed by the Center for Food Safety --along with several other nonprofit organizations and alfalfa growers--challenging APHIS' decision to deregulate the alfalfa lines (referred to as Roundup Ready® alfalfa). The court ruled that the deregulation may have significant environmental impacts that require the preparation of an environmental impact statement (EIS), and that APHIS violated the National Environmental Policy Act by preparing an environmental assessment (EA) instead of an EIS.

March 12, 2007
The court issued a preliminary injunction order that all sales of Roundup Ready® alfalfa seed are prohibited pending the Court's issuance of permanent injunctive relief. The court decided that growers who have already planted Roundup Ready® alfalfa will not be required to remove the plants. Additionally, they will be permitted to harvest, use, and sell such Roundup Ready® alfalfa. The court also prohibited all future planting of Roundup Ready® alfalfa beginning March 30, 2007. Growers who intended to plant Roundup Ready® alfalfa before that date and who had already purchased the seed prior to the March 12, preliminary injunction order may plant the seed. Growers who intended to plant alfalfa after March 30, or who did not purchase Roundup Ready® alfalfa seed prior to March 12, must plant non-genetically engineered alfalfa.

February 13, 2007
The court issued an order requiring APHIS to develop an environmental impact statement for the lines of deregulated Roundup Ready® alfalfa.

June 27, 2005
APHIS advised the public in a Federal Register notice (70 FR 36917-36919, Docket No. 04-085-3) of its determination to grant nonregulated status to the alfalfa lines. As a result a lawsuit was subsequently filed.


http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/alfalfa_history.shtml
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eriemermaid

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2013, 07:01:30 PM »

Photo: The Times They Are a-Changin' height=403
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Professor H

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2013, 09:36:14 PM »

I have some seeds from the late 70's, that the Fuzz would love - just wondered if they would germinate after all those years...   ;)


I know that even certain perennial plants/flowers now have the "patent" warning on their labels, that they can't be reproduced. 
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2013, 10:30:42 PM »

When a product no longer functions as it was intended (penicillin) did we just continue to use larger doses or did we try and find something more effective?


When that happened with penicillin, we did both.  We at first increased the dose, then found other antibiotics.  That is exactly what is happening with RR crops, only the amount used is not going up, from what I have seen.
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2013, 10:36:35 PM »

Photo: The Times They Are a-Changin' height=403


Sorry Erie, but that picture is a lie, too.  I know of no farmers that wear those yellow suits.  Corn breeders wear them to avoid incorrect pollination, but its easier to poke fun at farmers, than to understand the truth.  Whoever created that photo, with that caption, is ignorant.
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Professor H

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2013, 08:33:29 AM »


Sorry Erie, but that picture is a lie, too.  I know of no farmers that wear those yellow suits.  Corn breeders wear them to avoid incorrect pollination, but its easier to poke fun at farmers, than to understand the truth.  Whoever created that photo, with that caption, is ignorant.
I watched a group of likely college kids a few weeks ago,
they were in a field that likely was breeding.   Interesting how they cut the rows
It looked like a large certified seed operation - in the Canadian Lakes area.
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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2013, 08:48:59 AM »

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The Fuzz

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2013, 06:52:00 PM »

I have some seeds from the late 70's, that the Fuzz would love - just wondered if they would germinate after all those years...   ;)

Yes, they will but at a lower germination rate.   ;)

Being a connoisseur,   ;D ;D, the seeds available today are much more potent than those ones from the late 70's that came in nickle and dime bags (terminology that may ring a bell).

Interesting thread.....and funny how it parallels the growing industry outside of LiveWire's 100 acre fields. 
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2013, 07:38:09 PM »

How about this list Live?  I find #3 very true.

http://www.organicauthority.com/foodie-buzz/eight-reasons-gmos-are-bad-for-you.html


Every claim made in this article is not only unsubstantiated, some things I know are simply untrue. Many of the claims are outright lies, in fact.

I'm posting from my phone now... But I will be happy to shoot holes in this link, later. In the mean time, i would like someone to show me scientific proof that would back up any claims made in this article.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 07:39:41 PM by livewire »
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livewire

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Re: GMO's... Good or bad?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2013, 07:46:13 PM »

How about this list Live?  I find #3 very true.

http://www.organicauthority.com/foodie-buzz/eight-reasons-gmos-are-bad-for-you.html


Regarding the third reason...

Who ever said GM plants have LESS genetic diversity?

How can a GM plant that is designed to repel a certain insect, be LESS capable of "handling" insects than a "natural plant"?  That makes no sense.
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