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BigRedDog

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First of all, I'm not saying it's going to be an 'easy' fix...

but my biggest gripe with Snyder (and crew of RR and Zorn locally) was how they criticized and made fun of prior administrations (both parties) for 'kicking the can down the road' and yet that is EXACTLY what they've done every since they were sworn in. 

They've never put it to a vote (not sure if that falls on Snyder or RR) or really done anything other than some minor discussions. 

I found this undated (must be recent though because they reference gasoline costing $3.50/gal) on the MCRC website. 

Quote
Funding for Road Improvement
Fuel Tax - Yesterday’s Funding
 
Taxes! No one likes them. We would all prefer to find a way to provide services to
Michigan citizens without paying for the services ourselves. But the facts are that public
services are funded by taxpayer dollars. So, funding roads equals taxes.
 
Michigan currently funds road improvements through fuel taxes. The State of Michigan
collects 19 cents on each gallon of gasoline and 15 cents per gallon on diesel fuel to fund
road, bridge and culvert repair. The taxes on fuel go directly into the Michigan
Transportation Fund (MTF). In addition, funds collected from vehicle registrations and
licenses fees are deposited into the MTF and used to help fund road improvements.
Michigan’s fuel tax is a flat tax meaning that it does not increase as the price of fuel
increases – it remains 19 cents whether the price of fuel is $1.00 or $5.00. Many
residents think that when they pay more at the pump then the road commission gets
additional unexpected dollars. That is not the case. In fact when the price of fuel rises it
usually means that fewer gallons of fuel will be sold thus sending fewer dollars to the state
road funding coffers rather than more.
 
The 19/15 cents per gallon tax amounts have remained the same since 1997. In 1997 gas
was approximately $1.20/gal and the MTF received 19 cents each time a consumer paid
$1.20. Today gasoline is almost $3.50/gal (nearly triple) and the MTF still only receives 19
cents for each gallon. Furthermore, Michigan collects sales tax on gasoline, but those
additional dollars DO NOT go toward road improvement. The sales tax on fuel does not
go into the MTF. Though the State charges sales tax on fuel (the same as the tax charged
on clothing, a car, a laptop, etc.), none of the tax collected on the sale of the fuel is used
to improve roads. So, some would say there is a lot more than the 19 cents fuel tax on
gasoline because in addition to the fuel tax there is additional sales tax. That is true. If
you fill up at the pump for $35.00 for 10 gallons of gas at $3.50/gal., you pay an
additional $2.10 to the state in sales tax. However, road funding still only gets 19 cents
per gallon or $1.90 for your fill up. The additional $2.10 does not go to the MTF. True
you have paid $4.00 to the state, but not even half is going to get better roads for your
traveling pleasure.
 
Consider also that the funding structure for road improvement was determined in 1951
under Public Act 51. The last increase in tax per gallon was in 1997 following the same
formula for distribution as in 1951. The State of Michigan is trying to fund 2007 road
improvement with a 1951 formula and 1997 rate per gallon. Now consider that vehicles
are more fuel efficient causing fewer gallons purchased and at the same time we are
encouraging alternative fuels, which are not taxed as other fuels are taxed and are not
supporting road funding, although the alternative fuels power a vehicle that travels on,
and contributes to the deteriorating roads. Is it any wonder that the roads in Michigan are
in the shape they are in? The time has come, and is overdue for taking a look at
tomorrows funding for roads. Together we need to send that message to our lawmakers.


Above from:  http://www.mcrc-mi.org/images/Funding_fo__Road_improvement2.pdf

I'd like to try to put together a list of 'suggestions'...
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Monroe Native

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 12:42:56 PM »

Cars are also more fuel efficient now than they were in 1997.

I don't know if there are more on the road - and total number of gallons burnt are higher - but even if that is true that is more wear and tear on the roads.

Some cars don't burn gas.  I guess under the current formula those consumers shouldn't pay to fund roads?

Something needs to change for sure.
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toobad

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 01:10:55 PM »

I have a idea! Charge $20 a gallon road tax. :o Fix all the roads and then build more new roads with the money left over. ??? Then we can raise the road tax to $35 per gallon and divert that money to the Genereal Fund for entitlements. :-X Then when all the new and existing roads fail, we can start the taxation process all over again with higher taxes. ;)
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Monroe Native

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 06:36:51 PM »

I have a idea! Charge $20 a gallon road tax. :o Fix all the roads and then build more new roads with the money left over. ??? Then we can raise the road tax to $35 per gallon and divert that money to the Genereal Fund for entitlements. :-X Then when all the new and existing roads fail, we can start the taxation process all over again with higher taxes. ;)

I think that plan has been used before for other taxes.

That is probably why no one trusts them.
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

BigRedDog

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 06:44:14 PM »

Cars are also more fuel efficient now than they were in 1997.

I don't know if there are more on the road - and total number of gallons burnt are higher - but even if that is true that is more wear and tear on the roads.

Some cars don't burn gas.  I guess under the current formula those consumers shouldn't pay to fund roads?

Something needs to change for sure.

I think you meant to say 'wouldn't'...

yes, I have to think that even all those car owners would have to say they should be paying 'something' to fund road maintenance and construction.  Of course by the time you 'add' that cost into all the other costs involved in those vehicles you've eaten away at even more of the supposed 'savings'!

I guess I'd kind of like to see a fee per mile based on the weight of the vehicle.   The question still then comes up is how to pay it.  A small gps device could figure it out very easily but I'm sure many would not want the government 'tracking' their driving any more than they already are.

When I had a retail business I had to pay my sales tax to the state either quarterly or monthly (there was a threshold that bumped you up to monthly).  And we all already 'declare' all of our out of state internet purchases and pay that sales tax on our year end state tax returns, don't we?

I think that plan has been used before for other taxes.

That is probably why no one trusts them.

Like when we were all sold on 'ALL lottery proceeds will go directly to the schools'...

wow did that sound great!!!

Took about 2 years for people to figure out that for every dollar that went into the school fund 'slick Willy' Milliken' was taking a dollar out on the other end of the school fund and popping it into the general fund.

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Monroe Native

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 06:52:33 PM »

Per mile works - but I sure don't want big brother knowing what I'm up to.

Its bad enough that Google knows.

I don't think you would ever get over the hurdle of how to track the miles driven per year.
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

BigRedDog

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 07:33:18 PM »

Here's an older paper the MCRC has on their website on the topic:

Quote
Funding for Road Improvement
It’s NOT in Your Property Taxes
 
The Monroe County Road Commission (MCRC) hears regularly from our customers, “I pay
such high taxes in Monroe County, it is not right that we don’t have better roads.” The
MCRC would agree. The housing industry has grown rapidly in the last decade. Property
values have increased several fold since 1997. It definitely is not right that the roads that
allow services and homeowners to reach their residences are in less than satisfactory
condition. Monroe County roads on average are rated at 4.5 on a 10-point scale.
However, the money paid in property tax to the State of Michigan does not have a direct
relationship to improving roads. You can pay thousands of dollars in property tax, and not
one dime goes directly to the road in front of your beautiful home.
 
Money for road improvement comes from fuel taxes, license registration fees and vehicle
registration fees. Those dollars go into the Michigan Transportation Fund (MTF) and are
dispersed to the 83 county road commissions, the Michigan Department of Transportation
(MDOT), and cities/villages. County road commissions share 39.1% for county roads,
MDOT receives 39.1% for state roads, and cities and villages share 21.8% of the MTF
dollars. However, before any road agency receives a dime the State siphons millions of
dollars off the top of the pot and sends the first dollars to other state administrative
agencies that have NOTHING to do with road improvement. In 2004 (latest figures)
$104,686,709 was allocated to Administrative Grants, the Department of Treasury, the
Department of Management & Budget, and six other departments BEFORE one dollar was
allocated for roads. That transfers to nearly $41 million dollars that county roads lost out
on in 2004.
 
To make matters even worse the 83 county road commissions are responsible for 75% of
the roads within the State even though they only get 39% of the pie. MDOT receives an
equal percentage of the dollars, but are only responsible for 8% of the state’s road miles.
This formula for dispersing the MTF funds was determined in Public Act 51, (the legislation
that governs road commissions) and has been in effect since 1951. Many things have
changed since 1951 including fuel efficiency, the cost of doing business, the number of
vehicles on the road, inflation and the distance one can stretch a dollar. But those facts
have not resulted in a change in the formula for funding road improvement. Road
commission’s expenses have soared while their revenues have declined.
 
State officials have consistently over many different administrations taken the position that
“locals should pay for their own roads”. This attitude has prevailed without the funds to
accomplish the work. In essence the sentiment is that if a local jurisdiction does not
receive the necessary state funds to repair their roads then the locals should tax
themselves beyond the state fuel taxes to fund improvements to their local and county
roads. The only option local governments have to increase their tax base is through a
voted millage on the property tax, which is not associated with roads or road usage. Since
voters tend to reject local millages, it has been an uphill battle to find additional funding for
road improvement.
 
In our next article we will discuss declining fuel taxes and how they will not carry us into
the future.


From:  http://www.mcrc-mi.org/images/Funding_for_Road_Improvement.pdf
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blue2

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 07:39:48 PM »

The state sends the majority of the funds to build and rebuild roads in and around Detroit, consistently.  They dumped over a billion into rebuilding I75 for a few people could get to the casinos and ball games.
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SidecarFlip

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 11:44:06 PM »

There is an article in the Dundee Independent outlining all of Snyder's proposed budget and nowhere is there any mention of road funding, not one thing.

You want to improve the state and make it more conducive to business coming here but the infrastructiure sucks.

I guess we could regress to 'Taylortucky' and have dirt roads in the cities......

Snyder needs to go along with Zorn and the rest.
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SidecarFlip

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 11:48:23 PM »

I remember when I-75 was rebuilt last time.  John Carlo was the general contractor and it's lasted over 25 years.  Prior to the last rebuild, I fondly remember making the curve by Luna Pier (past the old scalehouse) in a semi and fighting to stay in your lane because the road was so rough.....

Those were the days and gues what?  They are back.  I75 is a disaster from the Ohio line to past 275.  Even a quality roadbuild job only lasts so long and John Carlo did a very good job.
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Monroe Native

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 06:24:15 AM »

There is an article in the Dundee Independent outlining all of Snyder's proposed budget and nowhere is there any mention of road funding, not one thing.

You want to improve the state and make it more conducive to business coming here but the infrastructiure sucks.

I guess we could regress to 'Taylortucky' and have dirt roads in the cities......

Snyder needs to go along with Zorn and the rest.

Funny - DETNEWS, FREEP, and MLIVE all went into his road funding proposals.

I would guess Dundee is happy with their roads?
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

Dan Hamilton

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 01:12:24 PM »

Funny - DETNEWS, FREEP, and MLIVE all went into his road funding proposals.

I would guess Dundee is happy with their roads?
I believe he stated "Budget" not "Road Funding Proposals".                                                                                                                           
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Monroe Native

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 03:48:12 PM »

I believe he stated "Budget" not "Road Funding Proposals".                                                                                                                           

Dan -

Would you like me to say that FREEP, MLIVE, and DETNEWS all covered Snyders ROAD FUNDING BUDGET PROPOSAL INCREASES?

Because they did.

Would you like to play semantic games?
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

BigRedDog

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2014, 05:10:58 PM »

I remember when I-75 was rebuilt last time.  John Carlo was the general contractor and it's lasted over 25 years.  Prior to the last rebuild, I fondly remember making the curve by Luna Pier (past the old scalehouse) in a semi and fighting to stay in your lane because the road was so rough.....

Those were the days and gues what?  They are back.  I75 is a disaster from the Ohio line to past 275.  Even a quality roadbuild job only lasts so long and John Carlo did a very good job.

They had the concrete recycling operation set up down in the northbound interchange 'loop' at Exit 9!  I drove by it every day going to and from work.  That was the summer of '87 I'm pretty sure so you're right on with the 'over 25 years. 

In Germany they build the autobahns with much thicker concrete.  One of the reasons is so we can drive our tanks up and down them.  Our M-60 Main Battle tanks weighed just over 60 tons empty. 

I believe they regularly get 40 years out of those.

I knew a gal that worked for Carlo back then.  She was a flagger and she had an awesome suntan!  One winter Carlo put them all on an airplane and they went down to Atlanta GA and built a road.

75 would last longer if it was 2 or 3 miles inland away from the lakeshore...   just too soft and too much water under the road for them to ever get a good base.  I heard one time that if the US Government had built 75 (or 23 for that) in compliance with their own floodzone and wetlands regulations it would have had to have been built in Lenawee county!!!

The old 'do as I say and not as I do' gig 8* 8* 8*
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BigRedDog

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Re: How far can Snyder and crew kick the can on a 'new' road funding formula?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 05:54:44 PM »

Per mile works - but I sure don't want big brother knowing what I'm up to.

Its bad enough that Google knows.

I don't think you would ever get over the hurdle of how to track the miles driven per year.


They're scuttling a proposal they had to tax Electrics and  Hybrids in Virginia:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-21/virginia-backtracks-on-its-hybrid-cars-tax
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