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marilyn.monroe

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"Personhood"
« on: March 06, 2008, 11:00:31 AM »

A movement in America to recognize that human life begins at conception.
I think the unborn are people too! We all came from the same humble beginnings. :)
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2008, 04:31:51 PM »

Yeah, anybody who cares to jump into this debate should know we've already hashed this out in here:

http://www.monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4373.0

Of course, you're welcome to hash it out all over again. Just don't say I didn't warn you.
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2008, 05:42:54 PM »

Yeah, anybody who cares to jump into this debate should know we've already hashed this out in here:

http://www.monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4373.0

Of course, you're welcome to hash it out all over again. Just don't say I didn't warn you.
No, I don't think the human life amendment has been "hashed out."
It is certainly still being dealt with in our courts and legislatures.

How did your life begin? If you weren't human before the brainwaves kicked in, what were you? You were allowed to develop and grow, why deprive others that right?
Maybe you would feel differently if that "clump of cells" was your own, or if in fact you were capable of conceiving. Maybe if you actually experienced the process of life from conception to birth you may form an appreciation for it.
Maybe not.










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marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 06:05:18 PM »

Not All Human Beings Are Persons?

"From a strictly scientific point of view, there is no doubt that individual human life begins at conception and does not end until natural death." Francis J. Beckwith
http://www.cbhd.org/resources/bioethics/beckwith_2001-11-19.htm
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lordfly

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 12:58:27 AM »

When does conception begin and end? It's not an instantaneous process, as Greg has mentioned.

At what exact moment do the clumps of cells become a person?

If you can't define that legally, much less philosophically, you'll never get any sort of "amendment" passed.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 08:53:18 AM »

When does conception begin and end? It's not an instantaneous process, as Greg has mentioned.

At what exact moment do the clumps of cells become a person?

If you can't define that legally, much less philosophically, you'll never get any sort of "amendment" passed.

I think you are making a mistake here. The meeting of the sperm and the egg does not constitute fertilization (your previous definition for the beginning of life). The process of fertilization takes hours. And you don't even get a genetically distinct zygote until about 1-2 days following conception.
I think you two are a little confused, and Greg is just plain wrong about some things. After sex, the sperm have about 48 hours to find the egg and penetrate. When the sperm successfully penetrates the egg (takes about 20 mins.) fertilization begins & changes happen immediately, and a zygote is formed within 24 hours (end of fertilization process).
"At the moment of fertilization, your baby's genetic make-up is complete, including its sex." *
After about 3 days the baby travels down the fallopian tubes and will attach itself to the uterus-conception.
"Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (hCG) is a hormone present in your blood from the time of conception and is produced by the cells that form the placenta." *
HCG can be detected in the blood 11 days after conception, and in the urine 12-14 days after conception.
Early signs of pregnancy - http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-am-i-pregnant
* http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/51/40790.htm

Quite obvious human life does begin at fertilization. Use yourself for an example. If you trace your life back to where it began...to the very beginning...that would be when dad's sperm penetrated ma's egg. Of course you went on to successfully implant yourself, as all babies do, unless man or nature (God) prevents it. I think it is logical to recognize conception as the point where we protect unborn human life.
I think creating human embryos (zygotes, babies, whatever!) for science experiments is wrong and should not be allowed.
Just because they are prevented from developing naturally doesn't mean they deserve any less protection or respect.






« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 09:12:16 AM by marilyn.monroe »
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Lithunica

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 07:01:57 PM »

God gives a soul to a child the moment it is conceived.(I think that was your statement from another post, I could be wrong) Would that mean that children artificially created at the lab would not have souls?
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 10:28:06 PM »

Good grief, why in the hell do we have to debate this in multiple threads? Marylin, what was the point in starting this thread?
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lordfly

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 12:35:45 AM »

God gives a soul to a child the moment it is conceived.(I think that was your statement from another post, I could be wrong) Would that mean that children artificially created at the lab would not have souls?

Or worse, that twins have dual souls? Half a soul?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2008, 07:20:47 AM »

God gives a soul to a child the moment it is conceived.(I think that was your statement from another post, I could be wrong) Would that mean that children artificially created at the lab would not have souls?
No, I didn't say that. I did say God said he knew each of us before we were in the womb. I think you answered your own question. Yes, all children have souls. That is my belief.
Good grief, why in the hell do we have to debate this in multiple threads? Marylin, what was the point in starting this thread?
Because the term "personhood" grabbed my attention, some states are considering it. I thot it was a more humane way to talk about the unborn than calling them clumps of cells.
*also I think personhood covers more than just abortion. I am not sure personhood goes far enough for me. I think it leaves doors open to the abuse of human life, like cloning & experimentation on embryos.
Or worse, that twins have dual souls? Half a soul?

Why wouldn't each twin have their own soul? They would. I really don't see how multiple pregnancies changes anything about the sanctity of human life.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 09:00:22 AM by marilyn.monroe »
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2008, 09:44:03 AM »

a more humane way to talk about the unborn than calling them clumps of cells.

You are way too obsessed with that phrase. Can we at least agree that before life forms (whenever that is) the building blocks are precisely that...clumps of cells?

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I think personhood covers more than just abortion.

Oh goody, so we get to discuss when someone stops becoming a person?

Quote
I am not sure personhood goes far enough for me. I think it leaves doors open to the abuse of human life, like cloning & experimentation on embryos.

Oh...so not just abortion but stem cell research whose fundamental questions are precisely the same as abortion. This is ridiculous.

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Why wouldn't each twin have their own soul? They would. I really don't see how multiple pregnancies changes anything about the sanctity of human life.

It changes everything because you have to solve the paradox of how if everyone gets a soul at fertilization then who gets the original soul when a zygote separates into twins and what happens to the zygote that did not get the original soul.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 10:40:43 AM »

You are way too obsessed with that phrase. Can we at least agree that before life forms (whenever that is) the building blocks are precisely that...clumps of cells?
No, I don't consider the simply amazing little cell group a "clump."


Oh goody, so we get to discuss when someone stops becoming a person?
A person stops becoming a person when they are dead. The only ones who want to argue when human life begins are people who support abortion and/or experiments on human life in its early stages.

Oh...so not just abortion but stem cell research whose fundamental questions are precisely the same as abortion. This is ridiculous.
Different issues, but with the same core value - respect for human life.

It changes everything because you have to solve the paradox of how if everyone gets a soul at fertilization then who gets the original soul when a zygote separates into twins and what happens to the zygote that did not get the original soul.
Who is to say the zygote didn't contain 2 souls? God said he knows us all before we are in the womb, I am sure he takes care of things like that! ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 10:43:07 AM by marilyn.monroe »
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lordfly

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 03:57:49 PM »

Quote from: marilyn.monroe link=topic=4541.msg113899#msg113899
[color=green
Who is to say the zygote didn't contain 2 souls? God said he knows us all before we are in the womb, I am sure he takes care of things like that! ;)[/color]

Ah, the old "Well, God did it" routine.

So I have two souls? Does this mean I'm really good at Soul Caliber?

What if one twin eats/absorbs the other in the womb? Do THEY have two souls? Or does God simply say "well, this one was supposed to be eaten, so no soul for you"? Even if such a twin can actually have two sets of DNA?

Science keeps asking questions, and it becomes increasingly tiresome to watch the faithful dodge and hem and haw and eventually just say "well God did it, okay?!"

Indeed, why have science class at all? The answer is obvious. God did it. Class adjourned!
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2008, 07:11:58 PM »

Indeed, why have science class at all? The answer is obvious. God did it. Class adjourned!

Creation science classes would be surprisingly short :)
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

marilyn.monroe

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Re: "Personhood"
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 03:43:13 AM »

Ah, the old "Well, God did it" routine.

So I have two souls? Does this mean I'm really good at Soul Caliber?

What if one twin eats/absorbs the other in the womb? Do THEY have two souls? Or does God simply say "well, this one was supposed to be eaten, so no soul for you"? Even if such a twin can actually have two sets of DNA?

Science keeps asking questions, and it becomes increasingly tiresome to watch the faithful dodge and hem and haw and eventually just say "well God did it, okay?!"

Indeed, why have science class at all? The answer is obvious. God did it. Class adjourned!

Ya know, if you don't believe God created us, why bother with the soul?
If a twin is "absorbed" I would say its soul would join Jesus.
I am not going to apologize because my God has all of the answers and your science doesn't.
You need faith to get by in this world everyday...why not try putting some in God.

When you don't even have the tiniest grasp of God's creation, how would you expect to teach it? I think that is the point...life is just so simple, yet so complex, so truly amazing...there is no way we could have everything so perfectly balanced without God.


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