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MonroeTalks.com > Categories > Politics and Government > Economic Freedom


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Author Topic: Economic Freedom  (Read 5405 times)

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The Shaggy Marlin

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2008, 04:18:18 PM »



Yeah, that might work if you had perfect information. Should we talk about areas where economic freedom should be limited?


Let's because I'm an all or nothing type of guy if you haven't figured that one out.
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... the place where [adults] pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus, without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate dictation within narrow limits of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is _not_ the state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade.
Bob Black, The Libertarian As Conservative, 1984

Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2008, 11:08:54 PM »

Rather than hijack this thread, I created a new one and answered your question here:

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9163.msg230033#msg230033

I've scanned your new thread. You haven't answered my question:

Would you like unlimited economic freedom? Is that scary?
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2008, 11:13:57 PM »

Can you define "greed"? Because I think greed is a pretty powerful emotion that can do great things if harnessed properly. It provides important incentives.
There's greed, and then there's greed at someone else's expense. The difference is critical.
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2008, 11:16:25 PM »

Actually, I'm pretty sure no human really needs more than like $15,000/year to survive.

Depends on where you live. $15k in Manhattan is a cardboard box.
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2008, 11:19:40 PM »

I think greed from the standpoint of earning more money than you need isn't really such a bad thing. And further, I think greed as a matter of "deserves" has to take into consideration the entire arrangement. Basically, I think what I'm saying is while greed can cause people to do bad thing, it itself isn't entirely bad.
This is exactly right.

There is nothing wrong with greed, as long as it isn't realized at the involuntary expense of someone else.
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2008, 11:27:57 PM »

See, the problem I have with interpreting freedom with selfishness is that it misses the point that if that freedom did not exist in the first place, there would be even more starving people.
Emphasis is mine. That should be "equating" rather than "interpreting".

The underlying premise remains true: you can't help others if you don't take care of yourself.
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lordfly

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2008, 11:35:54 PM »

Emphasis is mine. That should be "equating" rather than "interpreting".

The underlying premise remains true: you can't help others if you don't take care of yourself.

What if I can best help others by redistributing their wealth to the community? By gunpoint if necessary?

Your anarchist fantasy breaks down once someone with a lot of guns and/or followers rolls in.
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2008, 11:44:38 PM »

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "unlimited [economic freedom]". I think people should be as economically free as possible, except that the recovery of externalities is a completely reasonable avenue for government regulation. Not to mention that government has to exist to provide the framework for that economic freedom.
You just can't let go of those "externalities" can you?

"Unlimited" means agreements between individuals, without interference from anyone else.

There is no place for government to provide a "framework" amongst voluntarily engaged people.

"Recovery of externalities" is an excuse to exert unnecessary force without proof of damage.

Did you not really mean this:?
I am all for freedom in our economy. Why is freedom scary?


« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 12:08:04 AM by Matt (formerly ML) »
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2008, 12:04:11 AM »

What if I can best help others by redistributing their wealth to the community? By gunpoint if necessary?

You'd be misconstruing "best", for all involved. And you'd be ignoring what's right.

You'd be a thief and an enabler, and probably a kidnapper and a murderer.

And you'd rightfully be dead if you had the stupidity and nerve to try to impose that premise on your own. Instead, you'd rather delegate your collectivist fantasy, via some cowardly vote, to a gang of bipedal rottweilers who have been trained to ignore their own consciences.

My reply here is reflected at my blog:
http://rashynullplanet.com/blog/2008/09/11/what-if-i-put-a-gun-to-your-head-for-something-nice/
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 12:21:36 AM by Matt (formerly ML) »
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2008, 03:39:07 AM »

I think business needs environmental and safety regulation. I'd have an honor system framework. Also, Lehman Bros. is failing fast(er than I thought. What if we just let them fail?
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2008, 08:12:20 AM »

Let's because I'm an all or nothing type of guy if you haven't figured that one out.


Okay. My view on economic freedom is based on a fundamental principle that I hold to be true; That people should have as much freedom as is possible as long as it does not interfere with the rights and freedom of others. This is also the principle I apply to form my views in regard to social freedom.

So the question about when economic freedom should be limited is answered very simply: when the exercise of that freedom interferes with the rights of others. We can think of specific examples, like fraud and so forth. But what about when exercising your freedom does violate the rights of others even though you do not mean them to? Economics has a term for that: externality.

You just can't let go of those "externalities" can you?


I suspected that bringing them up would lure ML into this discussion. Welcome, Matt.

For the folks playing at home, "In economics, an externality  is an impact on any party not directly involved in an economic decision." (Wikipedia). And to illustrate this concept I like to use gasoline (metaphorically speaking):

To start, what is the costs associated with gasoline? Well, there is the cost to survey land and find land with oil in it. There is the cost to pump that oil out of a well. There is another cost to refine it into gasoline. And there is yet more costs with transporting it around the world to your local neighborhood gas station. These are all costs that you pay for when you buy a gallon of gasoline, adding a small but reasonable profit for each step along the way. But are there any other costs we can think of? Well, when you consume that gasoline you create air pollution. As does the refinery when they made the gasoline. But, these costs are not covered by the money you paid to the gas station. Instead, they are born by everybody. And because they are not part of the capitalist transaction, they are called external costs, or externality for short.

So, should something be done about them, and if so, what?

Well, the first part of that question is easy to answer. Yes, of course. If left unchecked, these externalities will mount and exhaust the resources and ecosystems which support them. This is yet another extremely important concept to understand in economics: The tragedy of the commons. "The Tragedy of the Commons is the title of an influential article written by Garrett Hardin, first published in the journal Science in 1968. The article describes a dilemma in which multiple individuals acting independently in their own self-interest can ultimately destroy a shared resource even where it is clear that it is not in anyone's long term interest for this to happen." (Wikipedia).

Seeing that something should be done about externalities, the question becomes "what'? Well, I think this is a problem that is best addressed through government. Milton Friedman, an economist and one of my personal heroes, stated it best:


The legitimate role for government is in so far as it can to, to control and check negative externalities. But in doing so just as there’s nothing that’s all black and all white there are never clean cases. Because government involvement is itself an externality. Government cannot involve in checking something without imposing costs on somebody. It has to raise money for taxes. It has to interfere with their freedom. And so each case has to be considered more or less as in terms of a balance sheet. Here are the problems, advantage costs, here are the benefits. You need a cost benefit analysis.

And in general it’s only where there are serious externalities where you can really make a case for government involved. And in general also wherever possible government should be involved by setting a fee on the activity concerned. And that is something else that has increasingly developed. You have a markets now in pollution abatement. So that for example in the case of the stream where somebody is putting something in. Your best procedure is to try to impose a charge on the disposition of the garbage rather than to try to regulate the details of how the garbage is disposed of.



I think taxation of activities that generate externalities to the extent necessary to address those externalities are a legitimate use of government. However, any taxation that goes beyond that is an unreasonable abridgment of economic freedom.

What if I can best help others by redistributing their wealth to the community? By gunpoint if necessary?

Your anarchist fantasy breaks down once someone with a lot of guns and/or followers rolls in.


Oh, I also believe that another legitimate role for government is to provide for the common defense.
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

The Shaggy Marlin

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2008, 09:05:10 AM »

Okay. My view on economic freedom is based on a fundamental principle that I hold to be true; That people should have as much freedom as is possible as long as it does not interfere with the rights and freedom of others. This is also the principle I apply to form my views in regard to social freedom.

So the question about when economic freedom should be limited is answered very simply: when the exercise of that freedom interferes with the rights of others. We can think of specific examples, like fraud and so forth. But what about when exercising your freedom does violate the rights of others even though you do not mean them to? Economics has a term for that: externality.


Ok so the way I see it, there should be NO limits on economic freedom.  Let the people decide how the stocks will fall.  The only need for the government is to ensure transparancy in the companies.  Even then the only thing the government should do is provide all information to the media so they can release the hid information to the public.  Once the public decides what they feel it will be reflected in the market.  Case in point, if you make a product that kills people, a la medicine, the public needs to know, but if the public chooses to accept that then nothing should be done to the company.  Pure capitalism.
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... the place where [adults] pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus, without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate dictation within narrow limits of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is _not_ the state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade.
Bob Black, The Libertarian As Conservative, 1984

The Shaggy Marlin

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2008, 09:24:48 AM »

Oh and another thing, we need to get rid of the U.S. Postal Service and contract out the military.  Both are extremely Socialist orginizations.
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... the place where [adults] pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus, without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate dictation within narrow limits of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is _not_ the state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade.
Bob Black, The Libertarian As Conservative, 1984

Greg Chamberlain

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2008, 09:53:10 AM »

Case in point, if you make a product that kills people, a la medicine, the public needs to know, but if the public chooses to accept that then nothing should be done to the company.

Right. Say a drug company has a medicine which will cure cancer 80% of the time, but will cause strokes 1% of the time. Some people may consider the risk worth it.

Oh and another thing, we need to get rid of the U.S. Postal Service and contract out the military.  Both are extremely Socialist orginizations.

I think yes to the postal service service (get rid of it), but no to getting rid of the military. National defense is a service that the private sector is worse than the government at providing.
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

The Shaggy Marlin

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Re: Economic Freedom
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2008, 10:02:09 AM »

Right. Say a drug company has a medicine which will cure cancer 80% of the time, but will cause strokes 1% of the time. Some people may consider the risk worth it.


So what if a drug cures cancer 20% of the time and kills 50% of the time?  Should that be allowed?

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I think yes to the postal service service (get rid of it), but no to getting rid of the military. National defense is a service that the private sector is worse than the government at providing.



So why is national defense any different than any other business?  I know for a fact our military is encorporating 6 Sigma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma to help improve it.  Why couldn't  a business do better than our current socialist military?  You'd be getting market dictated wages for the ground soldiers so you'd be getting a better quality of soldier, right?  It seems to me like a private military would be just another business venture.  While we're at it let the police be private as well.  Same for fire fighters and any other rescue worker. 
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... the place where [adults] pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus, without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate dictation within narrow limits of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is _not_ the state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade.
Bob Black, The Libertarian As Conservative, 1984
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