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Johnson35

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #240 on: June 08, 2010, 06:32:15 PM »


http://new.exchristian.net/2010/05/leaving-past-behind.html


Leviticus 20:10 states, “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.” – This is just one of many Biblical examples of absolute absurdity, supported by a “by the times” attitude.
What I mean by this, is that at the time these passages were written, the idea of adultery was so loathed that it was considered punishable by death.

Believe it or not, I don’t look down on this entry of Leviticus, along with countless other references like it. This is because I understand the concept of era-centric (or era-specific) writings and beliefs.

It’s like recalling a time in the not-so-far-away past when Western cultures allowed Slavery. It is not to say these things were not dishonorable and deplorable, but rather it is about recognizing our naivety as human beings. While I hate to play the ignorance card, I do have to acknowledge: We didn’t know any better. Sure, we should have known better, but we were stupid, ignorant, and just plain wrong. People thought racial segregation was an appropriate act. People thought blacks being lesser than whites was “natural”. People thought a lot of things we no longer believe…

… and that is the nature of the world.

We believe something for a time, and then we learn and grow. We leave atrocities behind, because they are the words and decrees of our former, unintelligent, ignorant selves in societies that no longer exist. Sure, America still exists, but the society which supported slavery no longer does. We now know better than that. We understand the equivalence in rights of human beings regardless of skin color. We understand it is a given, and not privileged.

Most people understand the concept of era-specific beliefs when you explain it in a manner such as this. Another example would be Gay Rights and how we as a society are moving (slowly but surely) toward universal equality for gays and lesbians in the area of basic human and societal rights as a given to everyone regardless of sexual orientation — and if you are still of the belief that homosexuals should not be afforded these rights, simply replace “sexual orientation” with “race” and you will have to concede to yourself on this point. If not, you may as well be a racist as well as homophobic.

Anyway… my point today, is how the majority of people are able to draw the logical conclusion that “100 years ago we were wrong about slavery, and we now know to move on from that and never again entertain its disgusting precept,” and yet those same people, if Christian (or Muslim or Jewish, or any other religion with an ancient holy book for that matter) can latch on to a book that contains words like Leviticus and still try to drive them into society’s heart; like a stake, nailing us to the wall of the past.

Christianity has been the main downfall of Western society making any real progress. Slavery itself was condoned by many Christians for years as being part of “God’s plan” for the way God supposedly set up the world. Prior to 1967, a black person could not marry a white person, and in one particular judicial proceeding, a judge of obvious Christian persuasion issued his ruling against interracial marriage, stating God separated the races onto different continents for a reason… and thusly, that was why he believed interracial marriage was wrong.

Somehow though, we still broke free of these absurdities. Even today, many Christians are quick to point out that the Leviticus writings don’t even apply any longer (because of the whole Jesus thing, even though he never came to obliterate the old laws, only to fulfill them… but whatever, that’s their conundrum to solve, not mine). However, you have to recognize the hypocrisy in a statement such as that: If you are throwing out part of your holy book, you are essentially throwing out the whole thing. Or, at the very least, you cast doubt on it, and open the entire thing up to logical scrutiny.

For no Christian who has half a brain would ever suggest we kill off adulterers any longer (there are some who do, believe it or not, but as I implied, the requirement of half a brain is sometimes not met). In a way they obviously recognize the idea of era-centric writings and decrees as a result; however, they are still more than willing to overlook other portions of Biblical texts (that appear in the New Testament as well, for the nay-sayers who wish to throw out the majority of the Old Testament) which are equally absurd. Things written by Paul for example, the true founder of the Christian faith who pieced the early faith together from Jewish myths and playwriting coupled with local Mithraic tribes and other Pagany religions… put into a pot, bring to a boil, stir on occasion, and out pops Christianity. [Most of what appears as the foundation of Christianity? Did not even exist or happen.]

That aside for another rant though, we have many things throughout the entirety of Christian scriptures that are also subject to the laws of era-specific writings and beliefs that need to be judged on a more modern logistical scale: Is this of value to today’s society, or has it gone the way of the dinosaurs (which some Christians don’t even believe existed, but still the same point is served, so stay with me here)?

Fact is, the majority of the Bible is no longer relevant, and is a set of long-outdated decrees. Aside from basic mother-goose type morals (The “Do good to others” motify… the so-called Golden Rule, stated by religions such as Buddhism at least 500 years before Christianity ever existed), the Bible is a set of archaic texts with very little of value other than being worthy of studying in a social-history type of way. We should always study our past, sure… to learn from our mistakes, and move past them; not embrace them as “truth” and indoctrinate them into children as “religion”.

Christianity is a lesson in the “do not wants” of the past. It is an excellent look into an early, primitive way that humanity tried to explain Life, the Universe, and Everything (RIP, Douglas). But it needs to be left in the past… So while we’re busy throwing out parts of the Bible as being not exactly “useful” to today’s world, such as the killing of adulterers, perhaps we need to use this same logic and apply it to the religion (not just Christianity, but all religions) as a whole.

We are living in a world that can exist beyond religion, as something so much more than religion. We have the capability to strive leaps and bounds into the future, but in order to do so, we must put away childish, desperate things of the past, and embrace our true selves in the present… so that we can work together for a brighter future, firmly rooted in logic and rationale, rather than mythology and fairytales.

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T-M-T

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #241 on: June 08, 2010, 06:57:32 PM »

Excellent post J35!  I especially enjoyed this part:



...the Bible is a set of archaic texts with very little of value other than being worthy of studying in a social-history type of way. We should always study our past, sure… to learn from our mistakes, and move past them; not embrace them as “truth”...

We have the capability to strive leaps and bounds into the future, but in order to do so, we must put away childish, desperate things of the past, and embrace our true selves in the present… so that we can work together for a brighter future, firmly rooted in logic and rationale, rather than mythology and fairytales.

Sounds like he was talking directly to our NPD-impaired, grammatically-challenged member who is constantly posting all that red nonsense.
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Johnson35

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #242 on: June 15, 2010, 05:15:13 PM »

Excellent post J35!  I especially enjoyed this part:


Sounds like he was talking directly to our NPD-impaired, grammatically-challenged member who is constantly posting all that red nonsense.

Thanks and I agree:

I suspect there are many who may find this type of rhetoric threatening, as it would have been to me a mere couple of years ago.  I hope, that in sharing this article among others I've placed on this forum, people with doubts can begin to see the truth behind the formation of religions and extricate themselves from it.
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Xerxes

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #243 on: June 15, 2010, 05:31:27 PM »

Even if you could prove to the world there was no god, you'd have billions of people clinging to it, for the simple fact people want to live forever, feel they have divine purpose, feel protected by an all-powerful god, etc., etc.. Not many people are brave enough to question the system.

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"What is truth?" Pilate asked.

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boater

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #244 on: June 15, 2010, 05:39:55 PM »

I also believed in this myth most of my life. I began to loose faith several years ago and was angry about it. But, after a couple of years of trying to get it back, my eyes were opened & everything made sense. Evolution, solar system, universe, etc. I now feel almost enlightened. I'm living without guilt and prejudices. I feel for those that can't accept the truth & the proof that so plain to see. I lived in denial for over 40 years. I was stifled all those years.
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Xerxes

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #245 on: June 15, 2010, 06:03:40 PM »

What is the truth?

Seeing both arguments, I am a natural agnostic and hang in the balance of both ideas of god/no god, but personal experiences have caused me to take the theist side.

I can see someone leaving religion, but the existence of a god may still be a reality. Science has provided a knowledge of life and the cosmos that leaves room for support of both the existence of a god and for a seeming non-conscious creative process. Which of the two is a reality? I think both sides have good arguments, and science doesn't really favor either, so it's merely a personal choice which we'll choose.

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boater

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #246 on: June 16, 2010, 08:03:03 AM »

If there is a god why is he shrouded in mystery? Why wouldn't he appear to everyone? Seems most of the "prophets" who claim god speaks to them, turn out to be con men and/or sexual predators. Why isn't he appearing to the 1/2 of civilization that's never heard of him? Doesn't seem fair the unknowing should be punished for their ignorance. When/why did he turn from a vengeful, killing god to a forgiving and all loving god? Wouldn't he tell us we should disregard the bible passages that were written when he was all for killing sinners? Or maybe we should be stoning adulterers. That would eliminate most of the clergy.
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SPOOKYTOOTH

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #247 on: June 24, 2010, 10:55:52 AM »

If there is a god why is he shrouded in mystery? Why wouldn't he appear to everyone? Seems most of the "prophets" who claim god speaks to them, turn out to be con men and/or sexual predators. Why isn't he appearing to the 1/2 of civilization that's never heard of him? Doesn't seem fair the unknowing should be punished for their ignorance. When/why did he turn from a vengeful, killing god to a forgiving and all loving god? Wouldn't he tell us we should disregard the bible passages that were written when he was all for killing sinners? Or maybe we should be stoning adulterers. That would eliminate most of the clergy.

If there is a god why is he shrouded in mystery? Why wouldn't he appear to everyone? Seems most of the "prophets" who claim god speaks to them, turn out to be con men and/or sexual predators. Why isn't he appearing to the 1/2 of civilization that's never heard of him?

He IS....  they as you just haven't BOTHERED to NOTICE; or perhaps the proper word is CONSIDER.   He's always been there... just off the tip of your nose. Its YOU who create the mystery and mysterious because that  is the manner you CHOOSE to envision him as being; which is WHY you cannot see nor find him. YOU (and those you speak of) have set the conditions and manner in which YOU and THEY will believe his existence. YOU seek to fictionalize the fact of his existence so that it is acceptable to your understanding. God  is  truth; why fictionalize himself so that he can be seen by those who prefer fiction over truth... what would be the point; you've already positioned yourself as preferring fiction over truth so why seek a contradiction to your on convictions ?

 Doesn't seem fair the unknowing should be punished for their ignorance. When/why did he turn from a vengeful, killing god to a forgiving and all loving god? Wouldn't he tell us we should disregard the bible passages that were written when he was all for killing sinners? Or maybe we should be stoning adulterers. That would eliminate most of the clergy.

The unknowing aren't being punished for their ignorance by God. They ARE being punished by means of their own IGNORANCE. One is saved BY truth... NOT by Ignorance.  Truth protects one from his own ignorance and that of others IF and only IF one permits it to do so by following it. If one CHOOSES to follow ignorance over Truth he is subject to the outcome, wages, penalty, OF that ignorance. 

The LAW was written NOT for those who understand, believe, and LIVE it because in doing so they become  the law. It WAS written for them who believe not, because in so doing they subject themselves to its penalties; thereby ensuring that they will not overcome it and corrupt Truth itself; which they would if they could do so.  Think of it as the ultimate self-limiting process. Those who TRUTHFULLY seek truth as a means of LIFE will discover it and prosper; those who do not won't; simply because they themselves PREVENT themSELVES from doing so.

The ultimate  'SET-IT'  and  'FORGET IT'  process.  Those who seek truth find it and survive... those who do not destroy themselves via their OWN ignorance of it.

There's the answer to your question boater...should you CHOOSE to believe it, or not. Doesn't really matter does it....  or DOES IT.....    ?
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The Shaggy Marlin

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2010, 12:23:10 PM »

I find it amusing that you rely in faith as a way to prove your god exists.  I can say I have faith that unicorns exist all day long.  I can say that the reason why ylu don't see unicorns is because you fictionalize them.  Until I have some kind of tangible evidence that unicorns exist, there is no proof and you are right to doubt me....
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Bob Black, The Libertarian As Conservative, 1984

boater

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #249 on: June 24, 2010, 12:50:52 PM »

Spokey, click your heels together three times and repeat after me...
You exhibit classic delusional behavior. And that's what I mean when I say your brain is miswired. You actually believe in fairy tails! In your mind they're very real, even though you can't prove it! You must stop condemning people that think differently than you. Just think, maybe OUR brains are miswired in that we can't accept unprovable, conflicting stories in an ancient book. WE NEED PROOF!
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SimpleMan

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #250 on: July 30, 2010, 03:25:33 AM »

And you only have "OPINIONS" as well. However, I'm not simple minded as to believe an ancient text to be "the word of god". Do YOUR research and discover the bible was writen several hundred years after the supposed death of jesus. It was writen by primitive people with primitive thoughts. IT WAS NOT WRITEN BY A god!
BTW maybe you should change your name to "simple minded man".

Nonsensical post.

The Gosphels New Testament, were written between 70-90 A.D., and not by "primitive people" as you alledge. They were written by persecuted men, who faced death by horrible means if found to be followers of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, they wrote what they knew, and indeed wrote it down because they were inspirired to record the events by the Holy Spirit.

I hope that you do not continue in your life blaspheming and denying the Lord, since the wages of such are eternal death.
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SimpleMan

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #251 on: July 30, 2010, 03:39:49 AM »

I also believed in this myth most of my life. I began to loose faith several years ago and was angry about it. But, after a couple of years of trying to get it back, my eyes were opened & everything made sense. Evolution, solar system, universe, etc. I now feel almost enlightened. I'm living without guilt and prejudices. I feel for those that can't accept the truth & the proof that so plain to see. I lived in denial for over 40 years. I was stifled all those years.

So, you had an event in your life that caused you to question your Faith, and you abandoned it? Things that try you should STRENGTHEN your faith, not make you deny it. Jesus Christ called on his followers to pick up their own cross, and follow him. The ways of the Lord are mysterious; they will remain so until they are revealed to us provied we are disposed to have such things revealed. We cannot in this Earthly life understand these mysteries, any attempt to do so is futile and offends God.

The 40 years you had Faith, were not in vain. The time you have spent without it are indeed the years of denial.   
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Xerxes

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #252 on: July 30, 2010, 04:09:19 AM »

Many members of cults have been persecuted and died for what they believed in, doesn't mean it's in any way true.

I've also lost faith in Jesus being God in the flesh, sent to die for the sins of the world, and for good reason. Namely, there is no reason to accept one extraoridinary claim over another.

Christians say you have to believe Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, ascended into Heaven, etc., etc, while the Muslims say you have to believe Muhammad was a prophet who ascended into Heaven in Jerusalem. The Buddhists believe Buddha was tempted in the wilderness, worked miracles, that there was an earthquake the day he died, etc., etc..

Point is, every religion has extraoridinary claims where they make men into Superheros, like Jesus and Krishna being God in the flesh, or Buddha being the Supreme Being, and why should any man receive one extraoridinary claim over another when there isn't a shred of evidence to prove them?

If you'll look into the Buddha and his teachings, you'll find that Jesus's message was nearly the same, and keep in mind Buddha's story predates Jesus's by 600 years. Remember there was a major route from India to Israel in Jesus's day, and that Jesus was a wandering ascetic. Notice that Jesus is always doing things which self-fulfill prophesy in the Gospels. Also, look how Buddha's disciples turned him into a Superhero when he died, just like Jesus's did to him. Keep searching into these things and you'll see the reasonable thing to conclude is that Jesus was just a student of Eastern Philosophy that introduced the Eastern way of salvation into Western thought by shaping his life, on purpose, around Jewish scriptures he counted prophesy.

Do your studies and I think you'll see why it's reasonable to conclude that Jesus is no more divine than Buddha, Muhammad, Gandhi, or even you.


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SimpleMan

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #253 on: August 01, 2010, 12:15:55 AM »

Many members of cults have been persecuted and died for what they believed in, doesn't mean it's in any way true.

I've also lost faith in Jesus being God in the flesh, sent to die for the sins of the world, and for good reason. Namely, there is no reason to accept one extraoridinary claim over another.

Christians say you have to believe Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, ascended into Heaven, etc., etc, while the Muslims say you have to believe Muhammad was a prophet who ascended into Heaven in Jerusalem. The Buddhists believe Buddha was tempted in the wilderness, worked miracles, that there was an earthquake the day he died, etc., etc..

Point is, every religion has extraoridinary claims where they make men into Superheros, like Jesus and Krishna being God in the flesh, or Buddha being the Supreme Being, and why should any man receive one extraoridinary claim over another when there isn't a shred of evidence to prove them?

If you'll look into the Buddha and his teachings, you'll find that Jesus's message was nearly the same, and keep in mind Buddha's story predates Jesus's by 600 years. Remember there was a major route from India to Israel in Jesus's day, and that Jesus was a wandering ascetic. Notice that Jesus is always doing things which self-fulfill prophesy in the Gospels. Also, look how Buddha's disciples turned him into a Superhero when he died, just like Jesus's did to him. Keep searching into these things and you'll see the reasonable thing to conclude is that Jesus was just a student of Eastern Philosophy that introduced the Eastern way of salvation into Western thought by shaping his life, on purpose, around Jewish scriptures he counted prophesy.

Do your studies and I think you'll see why it's reasonable to conclude that Jesus is no more divine than Buddha, Muhammad, Gandhi, or even you.

I'm sure that if I cared to, I could find what portends to be credible evidence that Jesus Christ works at Taco Bell, and is great pals with Elvis and the Loch Ness monster, or similar nonsense, but I do not care to. Nor do I care to take a revisionist attitude toward Scripture, or try to equate this to that, in an effort to rationalize things that cannot be rationalized or truly understood. Your post was well written, but the "You'll see" was the only accurate part of it, since indeed if I am properly disosed when my time on this Earth is over, I will see.   
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"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

boater

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Re: Creation vs. Evolution - Everyday, ALL DAY!
« Reply #254 on: August 03, 2010, 06:09:39 PM »

I'm sure that if I cared to, I could find what portends to be credible evidence that Jesus Christ works at Taco Bell, and is great pals with Elvis and the Loch Ness monster, or similar nonsense, but I do not care to. Nor do I care to take a revisionist attitude toward Scripture, or try to equate this to that, in an effort to rationalize things that cannot be rationalized or truly understood. Your post was well written, but the "You'll see" was the only accurate part of it, since indeed if I am properly disosed when my time on this Earth is over, I will see.   
Not just a river in Egypt...  After 40 years, I finally got over my denial. For my whole life something just wasn't right. I really didn't buy into the jesus super hero thing, just kind of went along. Think about the perpetual welfare of heaven. It's gonna get boring after a few days! Are you really into harps and clouds?
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